Monday, May 5, 2008

The Egyptian History Discussion

Okay guys, rather than have you keep going back and forth in the Shatner post, I'll set you up with your own topic on all this Hathor and ancient Egypt stuff.

Carry on...

56 comments:

orion28 said...

Here we go again with people not being able to interpret Myths from a Symbolic point of view and instead making it into the profane:

"Bauval who turned the pyramid of Khufu into a great vagina in order for the dead pharao to ejaculate his soul between and amongst the stars..please :-) Yes..all in all a great help for archeology to state that the whole gigantic and very complex structure was solely build for priest's to mount an artificial penis onto a dead pharaoh in order to perform a ritual wherein this artificial "gismo" is thrusted into one of the shaft's in the king's chamber (obviously not mentioning that..."

These are common all over the world. And, by the way, Isis constructed an artificial penis for Osiris. If you think on the level of the profane I can imagine what you're thinking, but taken symbolically, and he did give birth to Horus, its birth through something "divine," more so than worldly. You used the word "ejaculate" like it was a silly word. Think of it as "creation" so you wont be so inclined towards juvenile titillation.

Adrian said...

Orion...first of all...you assume to much on forehand...I for one have no problem interpreting symbolic points of view but yes...where you reflect on the word "silly" your assumption was right...I intented to reflect the very meaning of the word. I did not say anything about the significant egyptian Osiris/Isis rituals. What I did say was the "silly" meaning Bauval gave in relation to the function of the pyramid of Khufu

If one looks at the grandure of the pyramids on the gizah plateau, the technological and architectural complexity and scale....yes then it is an insult not only to the builders and architect's but also to mankind's intellect to state like Bauval, that it was build for earlier states reasons i.e. symbolic doodling by priest's with an artificial penis.

Adrian said...

And let us go...where no man has gone before...and go beyond..and grab this opportunity to discover new angles and possibilities Mike has given us here at "The Egyptian History Discussion" and give a word of thanks to Mike for doing so.

marsandro said...

Why is it that wherever you find ancient
pyramids, you find sand? Do these guys simply
have a thing for sand? Or is there something
of geological interest going on here?

I mean, the pyramids are built from blocks
of stone usually found in sandy areas.

Are we all missing something here?

What is it about "pyramids" and "sand"?

Even The Luxor was built in Las Vegas,
surrounded by---you guessed it---sand.

Okay, so I'm being just a little facetious
with the Vegas reference...but still....

Any ideas?

:-)

P.S.: I'd *still" like to take Hathor to the
Lost in the Fifties dance. Tied-up plaid
blouse, tight jeans, bobbysox, saddle shoes...
MAN she'd be hot....

Even Cats-Eye glasses would look good on HER!

;-))

...and with all those Jaf'fa clunking back and
forth in their Serpent Guard armor, doing
The Stroll....

:-))))

Mike Bara said...

I don't know about the whole sand observation, but I've stayed at the Luxor dozens of times and last time I was there, I noticed something I'd not noticed before. On the wall by the elevator shafts (or "inclinators" as the hotel calls them) was a big plaque with hotel address on it: 3900 Las Vegas Blvd.

I found it pretty amusing that the pyramid is located on a lot that is a "decimal harmonic" of 19.5 (19.5 x 2).

Do architects really plan this kind of stuff? I assume so.

Mike Bara said...

Here's another one. According to this wikipedia entry, the inclinators run up and down at an angle of 39 degrees. Coincidence? I think not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Hotel

orion28 said...

You're still missing the point. We don't live in a culture where a society lives its symbols and myth anymore. You're saying the pyramids at the Gizah Plateau are too sophisticated to be tainted with mere symbolic meaning. It sounds to me like Bauval has a better grasp of not only Egyptian religion, but also world mythology. The Gizah Plateau IS a product of their complex religion. Why you are trying to seprate them is something I am having trouble figuring out. You're making fun of priests with artificial penises, and then recognizing that as a part of their creation myth Orion has an artificial penis. Ancient religions THE WORLD over act out creation myths. That is just one part of the Gizah Plateau. There was no separation of church and state, even math and science would have been sacred. The pyramids have many functions that are coded into it, but its all encompassed within their dominant culture(we call other peoples religions "myth" as Joseph Campbell said.)

"If one looks at the grandure of the pyramids on the gizah plateau, the technological and architectural complexity and scale....yes then it is an insult not only to the builders and architect's but also to mankind's intellect to state like Bauval, that it was build for earlier states reasons i.e. symbolic doodling by priest's with an artificial penis.

The Fool said...

We don't live in a culture where a society lives its symbols and myth anymore

No we don't. When athletes and entertainers serve as hero's in a society, that society is truly cut off from the Divine Mystery.

There is no hero's journey anymore, at least in the west. The symbols of that journey, which were different from culture to culture, were extinguished by "The Scientific Revolution". Science's worship of the "objective" is the reason.

John Anthony West's The Serpent in the Sky is a great read detailing the symbolist's view of Ancient Egypt.

marsandro said...

Hey Mike,

If I had to guess...

the Buffet was $19.50!

Either that, or $39.00!

:-))

P.S.: I wonder if they have budget rooms for $78 a night? ;-)

T'Zairis said...

As far as the Luxor Hotel architects planning 19.5 harmonics into the building goes, I would think that they would do exactly what their client asked them to do. It makes me curious about who exactly commissioned the architects.

Another modern pyramid that is of some interest is the glass one at the Louvre. After looking at a history of Francois Mitterand's Egyptian/Masonic 'building spree' in France, and also taking into account that he was immediately succeeded as head of the G8 by the elder Bush, I have NO problems with the positing of ritual behavior inside NASA that relates to pyramids, Ausar/Auset mythology, and mathematics associated with HD physics.

There is a good summary article of Mitterand's 'Major Axis' public works project at Philip Coppens' website which addresses not only the highly ritual nature of the monuments themselves, but also ritual elements involving the timing of the stuff that was being built. The article at his website, www.philipcoppens.com, is entitled 'Axe Majeur'.

With regard to artificial penises, we are right back to Ausar (Osiris), whose male member was the only bit of him that Auset was unable to retrieve, owing to it having been eaten by an Oxyrynchus fish. (There are multiple Egyptian statues of said fish wearing a solar-disc and uraeus in a number of museums, and if one Googles the pix of them, it will become clear why the Egyptians blamed that particular fish...) Auset made Ausar a magical wooden replacement, because without all of his pertinent bits, Ausar could not be resurrected. In the process of reviving him (in the form of a ba-shaped bird-spirit which fanned the breath of life back into Ausar with her wings) Ausar conceived Horus. It is worth noting that a number of historians and religious scholars think that this story is the origin of the 'virginal conception/birth' of Christianity, and I have no doubt that anyone steeped in Masonic lore would know all of this.

It is also worth noting that human sexuality had no stigma whatsoever attached to it in ancient Egypt. Sex was frequently both public and communal (as in celebrations of Sekhmet's Drunkenness, and at the various Feasts of Hathor and Bast). An auto-erotic Pharaoh would have simply been seen as a sacred reenactment of how a number of different male gods were said to have initiated the creation of the Cosmos. To put it bluntly, sex was a sacrament.

As for Ra being 'lord of Mars'... no, he wasn't. A few modern esoteric authors have made up their own idiosyncratic versions of Egyptian magic in which they (based solely on 'personal revelation') assign Ra to Mars as well as to several different sephirot on the Tree of Life, but this is all their personal invention.

In Ancient Egypt, Ra wore a sun-disc and a uraeus, just like Sekhmet and every other solar deity in the artistic record, and extant hymns (like the Pyramid Texts) address Ra by such titles as 'The Shining One' and 'He Whose Body Is The Solar Disc'.

While it makes no difference to me if someone wants to follow Aleister Crowley's correspondences as listed in '777' or the most recent translation of the Pyramid Texts in personal magical ritual, it does make a difference which source one is looking at when trying to puzzle out what the archaic Egyptians themselves thought.

I also think that it makes a difference when trying to figure out who knows what with regard to modern NASA ritual. If they are playing out nothing more than a 'Masonically/esoterically-recycled' version of Auset/Ausar, then they may not know as much as they like to give the appearance of knowing, and I would also suspect that any purloined 'hall of records' goodies they may hold are fragmentary at best. This of course does not absolve them of the crime of not letting their fellow humans in on what they've gleaned, but then again, they are 'elitists', born-and-bred.

Peace,

T'Zairis

Mike Bara said...

You know, I'm not sure how much the buffet was...

Mike Bara said...

Yes, I also want to look into the pyramid in Long Beach at the college there. I forget the name but you can see it from the 405.

T'Zairis said...

Here's some info on the Walter Pyramid in Long Beach--

(from Wikipedia)

The Walter Pyramid, formerly known as the Long Beach Pyramid, is the on-campus basketball and volleyball arena for the NCAA college basketball and college volleyball teams of Long Beach State University 49ers. Finished in 1994, it is located in Long Beach, California. It is a large pyramid-shaped building, uniformly clad in sheets of dark blue corrugated aluminum; it seats 5,000 spectators.

The arena opened for its first 49er basketball game on November 30, 1994.

The Walter Pyramid was designed by Don Gibbs and built by the Nielson Construction of San Diego. The building of The Walter Pyramid cost approximately $22 million USD. It is named for Mike and Arline Walter, supporters of California State University, Long Beach.
_________________________________

(from BeachCalifornia.com)

CSULB Pyramid
1250 Bellflower Blvd.
Long Beach, CA 90840
(Near Carpenter Center 6200 Atherton Street, Cal State University Long Beach)

Seen as cobalt blue during the day, the Pyramid changes color with the warm glow of a setting sun.

The pyramid at California State University Long Beach (CSULB) reaches 192 feet into the sky and measures 345 feet on each of four sides at its perfectly square base, CSULB's facility is one of only three pyramid structures in the United States and the only one located on a campus. The other two are the Luxor located in Las Vegas, and the Arena in Memphis, Tennessee. Designed by architect Don Gibbs (a CSULB graduate), it was built by the Nielsen Construction Company of San Diego.

Twenty years in the planning, it opened its doors in 1994 with an estimated price tag of $22 million. 50 percent of funding for the Pyramid came from the State of California to provide class room space. It includes a one-of-a-kind seating system, mounted on moveable platforms. When use of the entire competition level is required for physical education classes, the seating sections can be raised hydraulically to expose nearly 39,000 square feet of beechwood flooring. The Pyramid's exterior utilizes a system of some 18,000 steal tubes and connection modules joined by more than 160,000 three-quarter-inch bolts. If the tubes were laid end-to-end, they would form a pipe span of approximately 26 miles.

Classes, campus sporting events, a commercial gym, meeting rooms for community and corporate rental and location filming for movies and commercials are some of the activities and uses the Pyramid's been put to. Poor acoustics have nixed plans for concert events in the past but the concept continues to be of interest. Student activities receive priority over community events in a facility seating around 5,000 people with plans to expand to around 7,500.

Info: 562-985-7137
__________________________________

Longitude and Latitude for Long Beach, CA.

33.49 N
118.9 W
__________________________________

Additionally, I don't know if you are interested, but there is also a pyramid-shaped commercial building in San Diego, up on Kearny Mesa. I haven't been able to chase down who the architect was who designed it, though.

And as if that wasn't enough, a well-known Brit architect (with Knighthood) designed a big, glass pyramidal opera house for clients in Astana, Khazakstan, of all places. Here is a little write-up off of a travel website, along with go-to info for pix of the two buildings (the pyramid and the 'Martian yurt') cited in the write-up:

"Sir Norman Foster, the acclaimed British architect, recently completed an amazing giant glass pyramid opera house in Astana, Kazakhstan. Beautiful, large, and magnificent, the opera house actually lives up to its name: the Palace of Peace and Reconciliation.

Foster's latest project -- also for Astana -- is set to be completed this year and looks something like a futuristic yurt... on Mars. According to Inhabitat, the Khan Shatyry Entertainment Center will have undulating gardens, restaurants, movie theaters, a wave pool, cafes, a waterfall, and a dramatic lighting system. The pinnacle of the mostly glass building will offer dramatic views of the park and city."

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/Projects/
1322/Default.aspx

http://www.fosterandpartners.com/Projects/
1438/Default.aspx

Peace,

T'Zairis

Mike Bara said...

Note also how it is aligned a bit off true North.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Long+Beach,+CA&ie=UTF8&ll=33.787164,-118.112973&spn=0.006117,0.014291&t=h&z=17

T'Zairis said...

Very interesting about the just-off-true-North alignment, and here's a bit more about Sir Norman Foster while I'm at it:

(from Wikipedia)

In 1990 he was granted a Knighthood in the Queen’s Birthday Honours, and in 1999 was honoured with a Life Peerage, becoming Lord Foster of Thames Bank.
______________________________

(from Masonic Quarterly Magazine, Issue 18)

The imposing Reichstag, the official seat of the Bundestag, the German parliament, is a must see on everybody’s list. Originally erected as a manifestation of the power of the German Reich, the interior has been totally transformed by architect Sir Norman Foster into one of the most modern parliamentary buildings in the world.
______________________________

(from eLuminati Blog, Dec. 26, 2007)

Moscow’s rapidly growing skyline will soon feature an eye-popping new addition: Crystal Island, which will be the world’s biggest building when completed. Sir Norman Foster’s mountainous 27 million square feet spiraling “city within a building” will cost $4 billion and it is scheduled to be built within next 5 years.

The Crystal Island will be Lord Foster’s second large scale project in the Russian capital, and his third new building design that resembles a volcano (we’re talking about his two mountainous buildings in Astana, Kazakstan). Although many people are calling this design the ‘Christmas Tree’ of Moscow - we can’t help but be reminded of the utopian and also rather volcanic X-Seed 4000 design for Tokyo. Unlike that pipe-dream project, however, Foster has a track record of getting buildings built, so the likelihood is high that we will see this striking structure towering over the Kremlin within 5 years time.

(for full article at blog with sources and pix, go to http://elluminati.blogspot.com/2007
/12/worlds-biggest-building-coming-to.html)
______________________________

So... Russia will be getting a crystalline 'arco-city of the future', built by a Brit-peerage architect who 1) updated the interior of the Reichstag, 2) fancies pyramids and 'Martian yurts' and 3) is cozy with the Masons. Hmm-mm-mm...

Peace,

T'Zairis

Adrian said...

hello t'zairis

you say in reaction "As for Ra being 'lord of Mars'... no, he wasn't. A few modern esoteric authors have made up their own idiosyncratic versions of Egyptian magic in which they (based solely on 'personal revelation') assign Ra to Mars as well as to several different sephirot on the Tree of Life, but this is all their personal invention"
--------------
That rely depends...on what you categorize, label and reference as "modern & esoteric & personal revelations" on the topic Ra-lord and god of Mars?

If so then you would have to include people like Sir E. A. T. Wallis Budge (1857 – 1934)into your stated assumption for he wrote and concluded it as well.

and for the other things you said about sex, ritual etc.. of all those things I am fully aware concerning ancient Egypt so there is no dispute on that even though "orion28" is reacting "constantly" to things I did not say but suggest's that I did. You already proved him wrong on "todays rituals in architecture etc. and possible deeper meaning of it all" so I won't go into his allegations and reactions to things no one has said.

If he can't fathom the point I was making concerning the foolishnes of Bauval's claims (see earlier post's from me on this topic)... let take another angle then...professor dr. Robert Schoch already proved him (Bauval) to be wrong on other grounds, namely his faulty dating of the pyramid in order to make his shaft-alignments (the shaft's in which priest's supposedly positioned the artificial penis mounted onto a mummy etc.) "stick". Excellent work done by Robert Schoch and yet...not much is done with it..the same goes by the way for the work of people like Gantenbrink and the like.

So yes...I am convinced we need to get rid off all the "sillyness" and "foolishness" that has been blinding mankind through the channels of academic peer-reviews and people who want to be accepted by them etc.

let all the data..albeit from Mars, Earth, Moon or elsewhere..speak for it self no matter what the outcome might be..for if not...well..read the Mc Daniel or the Brookings report for the possible outcome of that and just who runs of then with all the historical goodies.

anyway..Ancient Egypt yes...it is full of myth..lore..religion..ritual and the like. All is clear on that...but leaning to much on it as "a given" we might miss all the real goodies...and I think and have reason to believe there are lots of them out there as I had the pleasure of visiting Egypt on several occasions

for now..holidays coming up..have a nice weekend already..read you next tuesday

and in conclusion for today to round up the "penisstory" and the foolishness of it concerning the pyramid of Khufu....how can one stick a penis or anything else into it for that matter if they were originally closed and hidden from sight? Simply a question from an engineering standpoint of view. Further questions from an engineering point of view may include...if one would "by-pass" the aforementioned mystery...

Had the priest's infrared eyes?? because if one would have priest''s performing rituals in the King's chamber with a mummy, a artificial penis etc. how to see what they where doing?? another thing Bauval doesn't bother or care to explain!? without light it is...well..dark..very dark :-)maybe he got "so used to cameralights" over the years that he forgot about it altogether :-)

You see :-) you cannot have one without the other..or..one thing inevitably leads to another

the shaft's in the Khufu pyramid are unique, very unique...there are no pre or post's in other pyramids (the Khafra pyramid has only a few centimeters of shaft's).

So..if one takes a big leap of faith..a really big one in relation to the "artificial penis in shaft" story...why then, again from an engineering point of view, are all the Khufu shaft's 20 by 20 cm? And remain rectangular throughout as we know from the robotcamerashots (Gantenbrink etc.)

Again..I have never witnessed to date a rectangular penis that would require this size of a rectangular shaft? So why did the building-engineers bother to make them and go through such length's, literally?? (even if..as in a big if..it was for religious purposes)

And I could go on and on simply from an engineering point of view alone...but lets take one in conclusion from an egyptian religious point of view and take the biggest leap of faith so far :-). If the "penisstory" would be correct..and again thats a big if here..then it is also the biggest contradictio in terminis yet. Why? Because...obviously Khufu had four souls to shoot amongst the stars...for the pyramid has four of them (and no, there was no queen although the lower chamber is called queenschamber..for there is no precedent pre or post for burying queen and king together like that)...Khufu's soul must have had airbag's for all the bend's and turns these shaft's make. Remarkable and highly sophisticated albeit completely useless engineering if these shaft's where made for the kings mummy to choose in which direction his soul had to be catapulted into the sky.

And what makes Khufu so special?? again there are no pre and post pyramids with the same features. Or is that the reason why his father Seneferu for instance had several pyramids...because he could not decide were to lay his future mummy to rest??

all in all....“When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” and “It has long been an axiom of mine that the little things are infinitely the most important” Sherlock Holmes

Adrian said...

Oh...and as an inspiring thought for the weekend....Mars, in many known cultures deeply imbedded in history and associated with death, destruction, war and even fertility...comes eerelie close as to the why and how these associations may have come about in relation to the ancient Egyptian account on „the destruction of mankind“ wherein Ra, Hathor and Sekhet are the key players

T'Zairis said...

Yes, I do lump Budge in the 'questionable resource' category. A lot of his translations have not held up as new stuff has come to light. Where he particularly falls down is in the matter of assigning attributes to the Neteru-- he was deeply biased by two things: the 'one god is better than many gods' idea, and the 'female deities are always ancillary to male ones and are therefore nothing more than personifications of male powers' error. He is also problematic with regard to Egyptian grammar, but that is just a function of less available material when he was working on his translations.

Basically, I agree with the character of Daniel in the movie 'Stargate', when he makes the remark that 'Budge is useless' when he is correcting the faulty translating attempts to unravel the stargate inscription. That point in the movie always makes me smile, because it is basically true-- it's also an interesting 'throw-away' line attached to a curious subject: the possibility of advanced ancient Egyptian technology.

The masonry pyramids are not tombs. Archaeologists leaped to the wrong conclusion and overgeneralized when they found later, all-rubble-core pyramids that had been specifically designed as tombs, like Uni's Pyramid, which is where the Pyramid Texts come from. The masonry pyramids came first, and are genuinely enigmatic.

I also ran across something of interest while checking the latest stuff that has been posted online about various side-scanning radar and drilling assays in the Great Pyramid. Evidently, when a pilot-hole was drilled to check a space found near the Queen's Chamber, the space turned out to be filled with sand.

This is interesting for a variety of reasons. First, it may mean that even the 'masonry pyramids' are not solid masonry after all. Second, it shows that there is really a lot that we do not know about pyramid construction. Third, it points out how half-assed scientific assessment of the Great Pyramid has been, which then begs the question, is the half-assed-ness intentional? Fourth, it brings us back to a question raised earlier up-thread about why it is that 'sand' and 'pyramids' always seem to be linked.

I will try to re-find the article about the drilling so that I can quote source. I think it was a Japanese effort, but I may not be remembering that right. The Japanese are the ones who have been doing the major part of the radar scans, though, and I do remember that they have turned up a number of 'gap-anomalies' all over the Giza Plateau, and have been denied most, if not all, requests to drill small access-holes to see what's there.

...sigh...

Peace,

T'Zairis

Mike Bara said...

Yeah, Zahi doesn't let anybody drill unless he already knows what they're going to find.

T'Zairis said...

Yeah, the consensus on most anomaly sites is that Zahi is a mouthpiece/guard-dog (or should that be guard-Jackal a la Anubis?) who serves someone else's agenda. I have to agree. One would think that there 'should' be all sorts of noninvasive scanning and minimalist drilling going on if the truth were really being sought. Basically, gaining knowledge and insight into ancient Egyptian culture is a good, scholarly thing, so why isn't that happening? Instead, we have 'Indiana Hawass' as official tour-guide (?!?).

I did find the write-up I remembered about the drilling in the Queen's Chamber. It is a 4-part article. Below is an excerpt and go-to info for the page with the stuff about the sand. It seems that the sand was 'not local' and very, very fine...
______________________________

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories
/secretchambers4.htm

"In September of 1986, the two men [Gilles Dormion and Jean Patrice Goidin] returned to Egypt and began a microgravimeter survey within the Great Pyramid. In the Relieving Chambers, the tests were not conclusive, though they did seem to find some kind of anomaly. Other readings also appear to have indicated the existence of a cavity behind the west wall of the Queen's Chamber passage, just as they had earlier predicted.

Back then, it was a time when the EAO (Egyptian Antiquities Organization) was a bit more acceptable to, what was essentially, amateur investigation. They gave the French team permission to drill three small holes in the wall, which can still be seen at the base today, plugged by metal caps. The first hole was drilled at a 35 degree angle, and revealed only several blocks of stone separated by mortar. The second hole was bored at 40 degrees, with the same Cavities thought by some researchers to be behind the west wall of the Queen's Chamber of Khufu's Great Pyramid results. The final hole, which was drilled to a depth of 2.65 meters, revealed a cavity filled with sand of a very fine quality.

Essentially, their investigation had revealed little of any substance, though they vowed to return in order to perform more sophisticated surveys. However, before they could do so, in January of 1987, a Japanese team from Waseda University under the direction of Sakuji Yoshimura beat them to it.

The Japanese archaeologists, out of the Egyptian Culture Center at the Tokyo-based Waseda University, conducted their project under the name, Pyramid Investigation Mission. They followed up on the French team's finding with the use of GPR equipment during their first visit between January 22nd and February 9th, and also conducted surveys within the Sphinx enclosure. They returned for a second visit between September 12th and the 23rd, basically repeating the same surveys but with improved equipment and techniques.

The Japanese used their GPR equipment to survey the floors and walls of the Queen's Chamber, which resulted in an indicated presence of a cavity about three meters behind the north wall. Next, they moved their equipment into the passage itself, where they surveyed the entire length of the west wall, which indicated that the cavity was perhaps a concealed passageway running parallel to the horizontal passage. Their report, in part, stated that:

"This newly discovered passage starts from a point only one block's width away from the northern wall of [the] Queen's Chamber. The reflection ends at a point approximately 30m north of [the] Queen's Chamber. Therefore the passage is thought to come to an end here or turn west at a right angle."

The Japanese team also believed that they detected what appeared to be a cavity beneath the floor of the horizontal passage about 1.5 meters below its surface. They believed this cavity might be as much as three meters deep and that it was probably filled with sand.

The sand became an issue with many alternative thinkers. Many rumors about the sand surfaced, including that it was radioactive. This was not true, but when the Japanese team examined the sand and compared it to samples in the Giza and Saqqara area, they found that is differed considerably from that material. Apparently, the sand may have been brought in from some distance. Though Egyptologists believe that the Great Pyramid builders may have used sand filled cavities to buffer the effects of earthquakes, this does not explain why local sand could not have been used."
______________________________

Dormion and Goidin had posited the space near the Queen's Chamber as a sort of holding-area for funerary equipment, as they supported the pyramid-as-tomb idea. They were thus rather surprised to find 'nothing but sand' in the discovered space. Of course, the first question that pops into my head is, 'Is the sand of terrestrial origin?'

Peace,

T'Zairis

orion28 said...

With all do respect to Adrian, and I won't put his name in quotes, he seems 'stuck on penis.' A proper understanding would allow someone to look past it to its transcendental source.

MeanGreen said...

Wake Up!

Did you ever think that the Egyptian's texts are just a modified/ripped off version of the people/history that came before them.

The Snake likes his Tail/Tale. ;-)

marsandro said...

Has anybody here read a book entitled,
"Forbidden Archaeology"?

Just curious....

Thought it might fill in a blank space or
two....

It's sort of the "Dark Mission" of books on
alternative archaeology.

:-)

Hathor -- The ULTIMATE Biker Chick

T'Zairis said...

A good book to read with regard to very archaic Egyptian technology is 'The Giza Power Plant' by Christopher Dunn. Like Wm. Flinders Petrie before him, Dunn was sucked into a study of the Great Pyramid because he noticed obvious machining marks/saw cuts on stone blocks in and around the pyramid itself. He also knew the significance of the ancient, drilled-by-trepanning pink Aswan granite cores (which taper with depth!) on display at the Cairo Museum. The presence of these cores alone puts paid to the idea that the Egyptians did everything with copper chisels and dolorite pounders.

When one looks at the Great Pyramid from Dunn's point of view, then things like the 'Dendera light-bulb' bas-reliefs are not far-fetched in the slightest. (Just Google 'dendera light bulb' as an image search for the pertinent pix.)

Egyptologists are quick to denounce and heap scorn on any ancient-tech-oriented explanation of the Dendera murals, but they are also eerily silent when it comes to possible alternative meanings for the pictures. This is probably because a more prosaic (?) explanation of 'mythic, lotus-borne serpent-eggs' or 'cobra-infested-eggplants' would sound fatuous in the extreme...

Peace,

T'Zairis

orion28 said...

You could read an entire library of information on Egypt, and paradoxically, they *could* all be true. You could look at it from so many different angles. An interesting point meangreen made is that we dont really know everything about the Egyptian history. I would wager that cultures did rise up around it as some carryover from an older civilization. When I see the Pyramid, I see a symbol of transformation, a world mountain, a central tree, an axis mundi, uniting worlds. I think Richard Hogland is always fond of using the blind people trying to explain an elephant analogy. Everyone sees their own part, and it *could* all be valid in their own right. So, when you look at this advanced civilization that was capable of creating this, you can put your mind in two worlds. The Giza Plateau touches the cosmic order, and its also a structure built by man. But, like t'zaris said, it looks like some archeologists dont want to recognize that they were more advanced, and much has to be explained by nuts and bolts science, that is their advanced knowledge of science.

HHMSS Sword said...

Can anyone make a correlation between Egyptian lore and the pentagonal object in cydonia (aka the D&M pyramid)?

What lore points t'words Mars?

Sword

T'Zairis said...

The ridges of the D & M pyramid have always looked to me like the hieroglyph for 'sbA', meaning both 'star' and 'door'. All the so-called 'gates' of the Pyramid Texts are written with the sbA hieroglyph, so they are probably more correctly translated as 'doors' rather than 'gates'. (The word for 'gate' is 'rw'.)

Before everyone starts going into fits about 'stargates', it is important to understand that in hieroglyphic writing there were pictorial determinants attached to words that sounded alike, so as to clarify which word was meant. The Egyptians took pains to clarify which meaning of 'sbA' they were talking about, because although the two words were written the same, they meant quite different things to the Egyptians themselves.

A good discussion of the symbolism of the number five in ancient Egyptian thought can be found in Moustafa Gadalla's book 'Egyptian Rhythm: The Heavenly Melodies'.

Peace,

T'Zairis

HHMSS Sword said...

I find the D&M to be a astrological chart - and I feel that I still havnt had my question answered.

What lore leads from the pryrimds of earth to teh prymids on mars?

Is there any lore to a five sided prymid?
PS: Im a horrible mispeller

Sword

orion28 said...

I cant think of an analogue of the D&M pyramid on earth. Maybe someone else knows?

Mike Bara said...

We talk about the D&M as a pentatope, a five-sided pyramid existing in more than 3 dimensions, in chapter 3, I believe.

And there's always MS Word...

T'Zairis said...

The thing about the D & M Pyramid and the sbA hieroglyph is that the five arms of the sbA-glyph pretty much match the angles of the five ridges of the pyramid/pentatope.

I have always wondered why the Egyptians chose a 5-limbed symbol as the representation of a star, when just about everybody else used some variation of a 'cross-hair x' to do the same thing. Of late, modern archaeologists posit that the hieroglyph was based on a starfish, but given the Egyptian penchant for detail in their art, one never sees starfish routinely depicted, as one would expect if the shape of the creature was of sacred significance. That the arms of the sbA hieroglyph are all angled (as if to fit neatly inside a pentagon) seems to me to be more a function of Egyptian mathematical/geometrical knowledge than symbolically rendered sea-life.

Egyptian artists also always took great pains to angle all 5 arms of of the sbA-glyph: one never finds them using the short-cut of drawing a single horizontal line for the right and left arms. This would seem to indicate that the angling of all 5 arms was important in and of itself.

Then there is Plutarch writing about the numerical significance of the Egyptian triad of Auset, Ausar and Heru in 'Moralia (Vol 5)':

"Three (Osiris) is the first perfect odd number: four is a square whose side is the even number two (Isis); but five (Horus) is in some ways like to its father, and in some ways like to its mother, being made up of three and two. And 'panta' [all] is a derivative of 'pente' [five], and they [the Egyptians] speak of counting as 'numbering by fives'."

Please remember that the best and brightest of Greece all studied in Egypt, including Pythagoras. The Pythagorean philosophical/mathematical school also used a pentacle as their symbol, which is how it became associated with other schools of esoteric knowledge, the members of which, like the Pythagoreans, held many of their teachings secret in imitation of the Egyptians from whom they learned their mathematics.

Sword, I assumed you would know that the Egyptians had a pentagonal star-symbol as well as the mathematical interest/significance of same. If you are not up to tackling Plutarch and Pythagoras, you can get a good overview of 'Egyptian maths' by reading 'Egyptian Harmony: the Visual Music' by Moustafa Gadalla.

Peace,

T'Zairis

HHMSS Sword said...

So we can say that both the D&M and the symbolism in Egypt is aligned the same way - meaning the D&M is aligned to the mars equator and the five pointed star after mentioned in hieroglyphs would be aligned to the "bottom" level line of the hieroglyph?

Understand what I am trying to get at?

Sword

T'Zairis said...

No, Sword, I am sorry, but I do not know what you are getting at. Your last post is not very clear from a grammatical point of view, so I am having a hard time figuring out what you are trying to say.

I seem to get a general idea that you are trying to make a point about the orientation of the D & M Pyramid, but I don't know how to respond, because beyond that, I can't tell what exactly you are talking about.

Peace,

T'Zairis

orion28 said...

T'Zairis, do you have any links to photos of the sbA hieroglyph?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatope

Thats link is something interesting.

I just cant recall any artifical structures, and I mean a monument, that resembles the D&M, on earth. Perhaps there is and it was talked about in the book and I just dont remember. If not, it could mean a lot...

orion28 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike Bara said...

I don't know of any.

This is one of the issues I have with critics of Cydonia. Those that say the D&M is natural never produce a terrestrial comparison with a known natural formation. At least, I've never seen one.

And the best they can do on the Face is Middle Butte Mesa.

Please...

Adrian said...

yeas t'zairis....filmquotes really do make a good reference to "formulate" a point and to counter-argument scientific work from the past and present. Bravo!

and yes...Zahi Hawass sounds almost like Zahi Half-ass and his incompetent blabbering

T'Zairis said...

Orion, I searched high and low for something that would show a good sbA hieroglyph, but most in-situ pix are either too small, or partial/cropped. The best I could do was a Wikipedia entry on Mi'cmaq hieroglyphic writing. About half-way down the page, there is a comparison chart between ancient Egyptian and Mi'cmaq. As luck would have it, one of the glyphs they compare is sbA, and there are several good depictions of the hieroglyph both on its own and also drawn under the 'horizontal table' sign for the word 'pt', meaning 'sky'. Anyway, here is the address for the Wiki-page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Mi'kmaq_hieroglyphic_writing

I will keep looking, though, and if I find anything better, I will post an address for whatever I find.
_____________________________

Adrian, there is no need for peevishness just because you got caught using Budge. It just means you haven't read enough in the field. All you have to do is go to any library and check out a few books, because as nice as the Internet is, it is not comprehensive when it comes to ancient Egypt.

Also, by all means feel free to 'road test' anything I bring up, and raise bona fide objections if you've got any. But if all you can do is find personal fault with me regarding an offhand and tangential comment of mine regarding my taste in movies, then it is clear you need to stop sponge-bathing your delicate ego and start studying!!! This means reading everybody in the field that you can get your hands on, whether you agree with them or not.

Peace,

T'Zairis

Adrian said...

t'zairis

yes..by all means..keep on ignoring the argument's brought forth and by all means keep on dwelling in your selfproclaimed wisdom and above all selfrightiousness. there's really not point arguing with you is there...

My god, do you even bother reading your own ramblings. Who are you trying to impress with this character-assasination by means of assuming all weird kind of things, reacting on things I for one never said or stated.

As I said...you counter-argue with filmquotes and then you utter things like

"Adrian, there is no need for peevishness just because you got caught using Budge. It just means you haven't read enough in the field"

and

"But if all you can do is find personal fault with me regarding an offhand and tangential comment of mine regarding my taste in movies, then it is clear you need to stop sponge-bathing your delicate ego and start studying!!!"

This is nothing but shallow selfrightious selfproclamation. Twist and turn at every opportunity convincing yourselves that you "must be right"

Really what kind of stupid argument is it anyway stating a thing like "...just because you got caught using Budge. It just means you haven't read enough in the field"

Have you any idea how blatently arrogant such an assumption is?

there's really no point arguing with you and surely this post will be commented with further ramblings from you about me....the catch being..it says nothing whatsoever about me, my knowledge and studies but all about you. So why bother

To put a finer point on it...the latest baseless statement of you that the work of in this case Budge is very questionable using filmquotes to cream it of

Well, you must find the work of Richard Hoagland to name but one "questionable" as well then... for he finds sufficient reason to use his work as resource and reference.

As I retorically asked...you are probably used to think that you're right all the time so stay on your high horse if it is your motive not to debate but attack and assume.

I for one am not longer going to react to your assumptions anymore

Adrian said...

marsandro

yes, I've read the work of Cremo and Thompson's Forbidden Archeolgy and how Cremo got "peer-reviewed" and ridiculed out of the scientific establishment for writing it. A very interesting piece of work spotlighting mankind's or other-kind's history on earth.

Mike Bara said...

Ok everybody, let's keep it civil. We can have disagreements without attacking each other.

MeanGreen said...

Zahi Hawass - Something is odd(Do Not Trust) with this dude. ;-)

T'Zairis said...

I have been scouring bunches of Egyptian art sites, etc., looking for something with sbA hieroglyphs clearly shown. There are tomb ceilings that are covered with star-glyphs in imitation of the night sky, but most of the online pix are either too small or blurry. I did find a site that lists official cartouches of various Pharaohs which reproduces the hieroglyphics in drawing form. The cartouche of Pasebakhaienniut I (Psusennes I) contains a sbA-sign, and can be seen at:

http://www.narmer.pl/dyn/21en.htm

Pasebakhaienniut I is the third Pharaoh listed.

Peace,

T'Zairis

orion28 said...

Thanks for looking.

Gort said...

It looks to me that the side slope of the Walter Pyramid (California State University Long Beach) is approximately 48 degrees, whereas the side slope of the Great Pyramid at Giza is approximately 51 degrees.
(The side slope on the Walter Pyramid above is based on my calculation, which could be wrong.)
But 48 degrees is close enough to 51 degrees for the casual observer.

Gort

The Fool said...

Fool's Gold

HHMSS Sword said...

What I was trying to get at is the orientation of the D&M to the equator of mars. An image of teh D&M in relation to the poles - and where the D&M might be pointing.

What I really want is an image of the D&M with an arrow that points directly north to the "North Pole" of Mars - with that in mind - its longitude and latitude would be great...

...with that in mind - these images you have found in Egyptian hieroglyphs - a link would be great ...

... a correlation between the two is what I am looking for...

Sword

T'Zairis said...

I just love the synchrony of this--

While scanning an anomaly news digest at Daily Grail this morning, I came across a headline for a 'possible Egyptian statue on Mars'. I clicked on the link, which took me to a blog called 'UFOblogger', and took a squint at the pix, which are from one of the rovers. Here is the go-to info for the site:

http://ufoblogger.blogspot.com/2008/05/
after-mars-man-now-its-egyptian-statue.html

Again, I have to point out it's that old Egypt-Mars linkage in action-- whether or not the rock being discussed is a statue, people seem to really like the idea that 'ancient Egypt is from Mars'...

Peace,

T'Zairis

marsandro said...

Hi T'Zairis,

I had occaision to notice something one time
many years ago when some PBS television
series or other was showing some Egyptian
heiroglyphs in a close-up shot:

As they panned along the sequence of
symbols, I noticed that the guys with the
fancy robes, headdresses and "big eyes"
were quite a bit larger than the smaller
people at the back of the procession
(or whatever).

It was almost as if the larger beings were
giants, and the "humans" (with normal sized
eyes and all) were kneeling at the back of
the group.

This in turn suggested to me that the
Egyptian royalty were not human.

Annunaki? (*Martians?!?*)

There is a UFO Mysteries DVD narrated by
Roger Moore that shows the KGB taking away
a giant mummy from what was known to locals
as "The Tomb Of The Visitor." The remains
were analyzed at a lab in Moscow, and a
computer recreation of the face of The
Visitor was presented---

Our tall, large-eyed friends, apparently....

It is said that the Great Pyramid of Khufu
was built in forty years. According to one
analyst, that means that a stone was placed
(with extreme precision, moreover) roughly
every 3.5 minutes around the clock for that
entire forty years.

Some written accounts say that the stones
"flew through the air" as the Annunaki
followed them, chanting something.

One wonders....

Sounds like Space Dudes to *me*!

:-)

Me an' Hathor...at the Lost in the Fifties
Dance....

Adrian said...

marsandro

if one follows orthodox egyptology...it is more like around the figure of 20 years...Khufu did not reign that long.

Stretches the orthodox story of construction and building "the damn thing" even more :-)not to mention logistic's of such an undertaking

and from an engineering point of view this is and remains the ticking timebomb for orthodox egyptology.

It simply can not be done the way they (mainstream archeologist's) keep on chanting how the ancient egyptians must have done it.

And they (mainstream archeologist's) call people like West and Schoch and all others who try and shed some light on the mystery pyramidiots. What a world we live in

marsandro said...

Hi Adrian,

More likely the name "Khufu" was just sort of
"stuck on" after the fact. It's kind of like the
idea that the ancient Egyptians "built the
pyramids," when all of the available accounts
would seem to indicate that they *found* the
pyramids already there.

As to the forty years' construction, that
supposedly is the time required to build it,
which is remarkable in any event.

As to the name ascribed to the pyramid, or
the length of the reign of any "Pharaoh" of
that name, there may in fact be no actual
correlation between the two. But who knows
for sure?

You're absolutely right about the "true"
scholars of pyramid research.

Oh---and how about that fellow here recently
who discovered that several "sand dunes" in
the vicinity were in fact long-buried pyramids,
which taken together form a representation of
the constellation Orion, as seen from above?
In which the pyramids of Khufu, Sephren(sp?),
etc., are the "belt" stars?

It all sounds very "Hoagland" if you ask me.
Shades of Cydonia.

I can't wait to see what these guys find next.

:-)

Hathor -- The Red-Headed MOOSE of the Go'a'uld...seriously hot....

T'Zairis said...

Marsandro-- My main perplexity with ancient Egypt is that there are chunks of stuff in the archaeological record that don't fit the standard 'Primitive/Predynastic civilization slowly and steadily evolves into pyramid-building Dynastic Egypt' model. Machining marks on pyramid-blocks are one, and high-quality concrete cast-in-place pyramid-blocks (which can still be cut with saws, just like we cut concrete today, so concrete pyramid-stones do not obviate Chris Dunn's 'power plant' hypothesis) are another.

Then there's the art-- Predynastic stuff looks a lot like proto-Sumerian/Assyrian art: they even used a serekh-derived box and not a shen-rope cartouche for Pharaohs' names, and they used the crennellated, serekh-style wall on their tomb-compounds, etc. There is some foreshadowing of standard Egyptian-style body-representation convention in Predynastic pieces, and Narmer and Scorpion wear the conical-with-knobbed-peak White Crown. Then, there is a kind of 'artistic hiccup' and all of a sudden, one sees the menes-cloth headdress, the Blue Crown, carefully rendered and elaborate wigs, and standard-Egyptian body stylization.

While there are stylistic differences between Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and Late Kingdom Egyptian art (changes in wig styles, clothing and so on), everything is still basically recognizable as 'standard Egyptian', even the moment of artistic eccentricity that was Akhenaten's Amarna. The next time that one sees as big a 'hiccup' in the art record is when the Ptolemies take over, and Greco-Roman stuff starts to collapse the standard Egyptian aesthetic-- you get things like Roman-style portraits (complete with laurel-crowns) attached to old-Egyptian-looking sarcophagi, and Greek-style statues tricked out in menes and linen kilt-and-apron, (which look utterly ridiculous, by the bye).

Just by looking at the artistic record, it is very apparent that there was a major upheaval of Egyptian culture at this period of time, and I would be willing to bet a week's-worth of temple food-offerings (because the Egyptians never used money throughout their long history) that the 'artistic jolt' between Predynastic and Dynastic Egypt indicates a similar influx of ideas. The obvious question is, from where? If it was always 'just the Egyptians', why is there such a major stylistic boundary between Narmer's and Scorpion's Egypt and that of the early Dynastic Pharaohs?

Then there are also problems with dating the Sphinx and the Pyramids at Giza, and some researchers have floated arguments that Dynastic Egypt may have simply inherited the Giza Pyramids from an earlier epoch, and experimented with them around Unas' time as possible burial-mound models (because they had forgotten what the originals were for, or had lost the skill to make the Giza Power Plant operational).

Even acknowledging that the Dynastic Egyptian civilization alone lasted long enough (4,000 years) for them to forget/reinvent their deities and history several times over (and there is both artistic and written evidence that attests to cultural permutation even in Ma'At-loving Egypt), there is something about it that is just plain odd, and the Giza Pyramids embody that oddness.

As far as 'Visitors' go, Egypt is not the only culture that 'acknowledged' them. Native Americans do, too. They call them 'Sky-people', 'Star-people' or the 'Star Nations'.

Peace,

T'Zairis

marsandro said...

Hi T'Zairis,

Roger that. You definitely know your stuff.

I recall reading a technical treatise on the
star alignment of the great Pyramid that
came to the conclusion that the "time of
the pyramid" began in (roughly) 4199 BC.

That seems all a bit ahead of any of the
usually given time settings for Egyptian
much-of-anything.

Then again, I read where there supposedly
was evidence that the Great Pyramid predated
the flood of Noah.

That, in turn, is *very* interesting in
light of the Scripture which says, "I have
set a wonder in the midst of the land of
Egypt, and at the borders thereof."
It would seem to be a clear reference to
the Pyramids, and possibly the Sphinx.

I'm no Egyptian history scholar, but I have
seen some interesting studies published
about those enigmatic things. It just
keeps getting ever more fascinating.

Your detailed knowledge of the history is
most englightening, and greatly appreciated.

:-)

Indian Hathor -- The HOT Kachina

Mike Bara said...

Okay, so do you have the reference for that line of scripture?

marsandro said...

Okay...I did a KJV search, and the only
thing that came up was Isaiah 19:19, for
which the wording was not as I remembered it.

Might be another Scripture, and I just don't
recall the exact wording (so that will tend to
scuttle the search).

I'm using

http://www.usaquality.com/bible/search/

and

http://www.kjvbible.net/cgi-bin/search.cgi

which aren't too forgiving if even one word
is off.

Unfortunately, my study references are
sitting boxed up in a warehouse, or I'd be
pulling them down and checking this through
Young's, Strong's and several other good
references....

Anyway, there's Is. 19:19 for starters.

:-)

Hathor -- With a Ta'Ri makeover

marsandro said...

Add in Jeremiah 32:20 just for good measure....

:-)

Hathor -- In a wing-top TransAm